The Luskin situation: A summary, analysis and decision

Administration 281 Comments
By Dave Munger

This week’s episode dealing with the Casey Luskin’s post Leslie Orgel: Metabolic Origin of Life ‘Unlikely’; Complexity Requires ‘A Skilled Synthetic Chemist’ has highlighted some important issues for the future of our organization. I’ll address those in a separate post. In this post, I’d like to focus in on this particular case, and what I believe we should do about it.

First, the background: Several readers pointed this post out to me as an example of a post that violates the ResearchBlogging guidelines — before Luskin had even applied for an account with ResearchBlogging.org. Luskin has since removed the icon from his post and applied for an account, but we still need to resolve two questions.

  1. Should we allow Luskin to register his blog Evolution News & Views with ResearchBlogging.org?
  2. Does this specific post qualify for aggregation and use of the icon should Luskin wish to add the icon again in the future?

The first question is in many ways dependent on the second. In the future we plan on having several administrators with the authority to approve new accounts at ResearchBlogging.org, but now, although all members of our team have administrative access, I’m the only person actively managing the registrations, so let me take you through the process I use to approve an account.

When I see a new registration application, I’m looking primarily for two things. First, is the information on the registration form accurate? An incorrect URL or feed address means that a blog’s posts won’t be aggregated. So I visit the site and verify the feed address. Second, does the blog appear to have posts that meet our guidelines? Do any of the posts cite peer-reviewed research, and are those posts making substantive comments on the research? If the site meets those two requirements, I approve the registration. I don’t look too closely at the content of the blog — I figure if the blog later turns out to be a problem, we can always temporarily suspend the account and discuss what further action to take in the forums.

Using this process, it might seem that we should probably approve Evolution News & Views, but there’s a hitch: my prior knowledge that several readers had already objected to a post. Why should I approve an account when I know a post is problematic? One possibility is that these readers’ objections were unfounded. Another is that this post is anomalous — that there are many other posts on the blog which follow the guidelines.

Let’s consider the first possibility. The discussion thread I posted on February 4 was supposed to address whether Luskin’s post met our guidelines, but the 88 comments that thread has received so far range far beyond the scope I had intended. There have also been some incisive posts on other blogs. I’m going to attempt to summarize that discussion here. I’m also going to offer my own opinions about the issues. I had wanted to stay a bit removed from the fray, but emotions are running so high in this debate that it now seems important to bring the discussion back down to a restrained level.

Some commenters suggested that the post violated Guidelines #1 and 2 — that it wasn’t actually referencing peer-reviewed research, because the article in question was an essay, not a report on “real” research. I disagree with this contention. The term “research” on our site was meant to cover all scientific and scholarly discourse, not just experiments.

Some commenters also contended that the article wasn’t peer-reviewed, perhaps due to some confusion over an acknowledgement of a colleague who commented on a draft of the manuscript. I contacted the editor of this section of PLoS – Biology, Liza Gross, and she assured me that this article, like all articles published in that journal, was indeed peer-reviewed.

The real issue, then, is whether the post adheres to Guidelines #4 and 5. We’ll have to take Luskin’s word on #4 (which requires that the blogger read and understand the article cited), and he assures us that he does meet this guideline. So we’re left with Guideline #5: Does the post report accurately and thoughtfully on the research it cites?

Commenter Doc Bill gets to the heart of the matter:

Clearly, Luskin doesn’t understand the purpose of Orgel’s essay, that is, to discuss the plausibility of hypothetical nonenzymatic cycles.

Instead Luskin just makes stuff up, like this: “Again, Orgel essentially assumes that cyclic metabolic pathways are irreducibly complex systems that require a large number of parts in order to function”

Luskin replies:

Orgel states, “At the very least, six different catalytic activities would have been needed to complete the reverse citric acid cycle. It could be argued, but with questionable plausibility, that different sites on the primitive Earth offered an enormous combinatorial library of mineral assemblies, and that among them a collection of the six or more required catalysts could have coexisted.” That seems to meet the definition of irreducible complexity.

Doc Bill then points out that Orgel doesn’t specifically state that his objections to these processes means they are irreducibly complex, and that Orgel in fact never uses the term. I might add that Orgel’s essay only addresses a few possible mechanism for these cycles; it doesn’t argue that no other mechanism could possibly work, only that these proposed mechanisms probably wouldn’t.

DiGz discusses another portion of the post:

“Just like the case of the ribosome, the evidence shows that the complexity of life requires an intelligent cause.”

That’s a conclusion based on his own pre-conceived notions and is not mentioned anywhere in the paper, nor could it be extrapolated scientifically from its contents. That’s simply Casey making something up and as such it misrepresents the content and conclusions of the paper.

Luskin contends that that’s his own opinion and not relevant to his accurate reporting on the facts of the article. He is correct in pointing out that the guidelines do allow bloggers to state their own opinions — we don’t restrict bloggers to a bland reporting of the facts. However, I’m troubled by the statement DiGz quotes because it’s unclear that it in fact represents only Luskin’s opinion.

I talked privately with science ethicist Janet Stemwedel, and she agrees that the blurring of the distinction between what’s supported by the article itself and what constitutes the blogger’s personal opinion is problematic. In this case, when Luskin refers to “the evidence,” what evidence could he be referring to, if not the evidence supposedly offered in Orgel’s article? Yet Orgel does not present any evidence that “the complexity of life requires an intelligent cause.” The blog post itself should make it clear that this final assertion is Casey’s alone, not Orgel’s. We shouldn’t have to wait for Luskin’s assertion that this was only his personal opinion, especially when he still hasn’t modified his original post to make that clear.

Moving on to the second possibility, it’s also possible that this post is an anomaly and that in general Luskin does report accurately on peer-reviewed research. Unfortunately, based on the comments in Monday’s thread, that doesn’t seem likely either. Many commenters point to Luskin’s frequent “quote mining” of articles, taking statements out of context in order to make his case. It doesn’t seem to me that Luskin is making an honest attempt to accurately discuss peer-reviewed research. Indeed, many of Luskin’s posts argue that the peer-reviewed research system is itself flawed. While we acknowledge that peer review isn’t perfect, why should we accept as a participant in our organization someone who doesn’t believe that one of our founding principles — the peer review process — is worthwhile?

Some commenters have argued that we should give Luskin the benefit of the doubt, and that even if he abuses our guidelines, other blogs will respond to his arguments and that open discussion will win out. I, along with most commenters, disagree. The point of our organization is to promote peer-reviewed research and add credibility to serious research blogs. We don’t need to prop up sites that don’t live up to our guidelines.

For now, therefore, I’m not approving Luskin’s request to be included in the ResearchBlogging.org site.

This decision is not final; I’d still like your input, but I was a little disappointed with the quality of the discussion on Monday’s post, so I’d like to try something new here. I’m asking commenters on this post to focus on the substance of Luskin’s case for inclusion on our site, and the case for denying his request. I’m going to delete comments that are unprofessional, rude, ad-hominem, unsubstantive, or otherwise uncivil. This is an experimental approach which I hope will keep responses focused on the question of whether or not to include Luskin in our aggregation system.

281 Responses to “The Luskin situation: A summary, analysis and decision”

  1. DrugMonkey Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    I think the scientific ethicist has put her finger squarely on the issue and you have come close to completely booting this one.

    You seem to be saying that in blogging peer reviewed research it is necessary and possible to draw completely bright lines between the bloggers opinion and review of the paper itself. This is far harder to accomplish than you seem to believe. If one were able to do so, the blog post would be nigh unreadable, if you ask me.

    And as to not including someone just because they don’t accept the “peer review process” is worthwhile? Are you kidding? The peer review processes we use need constant examination for strengths, weakness, limitations, etc. Examination of these actually enhances our ability to interpret the resulting Gestalt of a given body of work.

    Are you suggesting that the people in the recently discussed paleontology paper claim-jumping incident who are going on about the quality of the peer-review in a certain groups “house journal” should shut up?

  2. Ian Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    I think you’re going about this with the wrong mindset.

    We’re scientists. By training and habit we expect to deal with reality-based problems. We are not lawyers; we’re not experts in twisting language and words to our ends.

    Intelligent Design proponents are exactly the opposite. Their only skills are in twisting words and language.

    Luskin has turned this into an word-twisting exercise. He’s got you squinting at the provisional definition you dashed off. Why are you playing his game?

    You know — as a scientist, as someone with common sense — that Luskin is lying, that he’s twisting the meaning of the article, that he is doing this deliberately to add scientific legitimacy to an anti-scientific agenda. You know this, and yet you’ve been tricked into worrying whether some clauses can be twisted to support him.

    Step out of his game. You’re in charge of this thing. Add another clause, if you feel better about it, or simply make a declaration. Intelligent Design has no place in science. Don’t let them steal your work.

  3. greg laden Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

    I actually totally disagree with your rational, but support your decision. Those criteria, applied exactly as you apply here, would disqualify many other posts (including some of mine). Also, I don’t think any of us want our membership in the BPR3 group to depend on one post.

    However, I think you are being way way to nice to Luskin.

    The Discover Institute Web Site should never, ever be linked to by the BPR3 web site. The DI site is a politically motivated, anti-scientific, nefarious, dishonest, besmirchment on the world wide web and the blogosphere. The DI site should be boycotted and shunned by scientists and all who honor and respect truth and real research.

    BPR3 is an honest, sincere, well intentioned, and effective effort to link the science blogosphere (which does not under any reasonable circumstances include the Discover Institute or anything it produces) and the scientific peer reviewed literature (which does not include the Discovery Institute or anything it produces).

    The reasons you should not allow the DI membership or involvement are not really about this one post, but about everything the DI and Luskin stand for.

    Not only should they not be linked to or approved for membership, but they should be actively boycotted and criticized.

    If Luskin or the DI were given the same treatment as legitimate science bloggers, I would consider distancing myself from this noble effort.

  4. greg laden Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

    Ian’s post came up while I was writing mine… and he says something that I also intended to say but forgot …

    You can have a rule that says that you can disallow membership/links on the basis of inappropriateness of any kind, as needed (not those words … get better words). Your standard escape clause.

    Of course, if you start banning real science bloggers because you disagree with them or don’t like the color of their underwear, we will take you down and everybody knows that. But the fact is that we all respect and trust you and believe you will not do stupid things like that.

  5. Dave Munger Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    Drug Monkey:

    You think it’s impossible to add “I think” or “I believe” to a post without making it unreadable?

    Obviously I agree that we ought to question the peer review process, but we ought to do it in a rational way. Luskin, if his posts are to be believed, thinks the entire journal Nature is corrupted because of a 19th century mission statement.

    Greg (in comment #3):

    I suppose we’ll see. This is our first attempt to rigorously apply the guidelines. Do you want to suggest one of your posts for us to apply the same treatment to?

    (in comment #4):
    I don’t think a “standard escape clause” is a good idea. If we can’t clearly define what we mean by blogging about peer-reviewed research, then we become a dictatorship instead of a community run organization.

  6. Ian Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    we become a dictatorship instead of a community run organization

    And that’s a problem … why?

    It’s clear to me that this project can only work if it’s a (benevolent) dictatorship. Sure, have a community scrutinize and evaluate — but someone has to make decisions. It’s a copout trying to shove the decision-making onto the “community”. At the end of the day someone has to make a decision, no matter how much screaming and name-calling the “community” indulges in.

    You’ve already done this, by making a declaration on the requirements for the comments here.

    Trying to “clearly define” something is lawyer’s work. If you think that having a clear definition is essential, then hire a lawyer to do so. But you will end up muffling common sense in legalese, and you will be constantly attacked by niggling little word twisters, and contantly have to defend the details.

    If you end up smothering this project in legalese and allowing anti-science and pseudoscience to squeeze in, then no matter how “community run” it is the project will die. (In fact your “community” will be the “community” of loud-mouthed people with time to spare — not people with something substantive to say and real work to do.) If you have a clean, well-organized and useful web site then BPR3 will prosper.

    You need to make a decision, right now, which route you want BPR3 to take.

  7. Dave Munger Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

    I’m pretty confident that requiring thoughtful posts about peer-reviewed research will squeeze out the pseudoscience and antiscience. I guess you’re not.

  8. Ian Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 3:18 pm

    I’m pretty confident that requiring thoughtful posts about peer-reviewed research will squeeze out the pseudoscience and antiscience. I guess you’re not.

    I’ve been on the internet watching fora and communities form and collapse for close to twenty years.

    Darn tootin’ I’m not confident.

  9. greg laden Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    To answer your question: I have never made an effort to explicitly apply the journalistic guidelines of keeping a subject (a paper, in this case) distinct, or similar rules. Ever. Nor do I try to muddle the line. The consideration of this line or related issues is not part of what or why I’m writing. I am not a journalist. At some level, my blogs are all my opinion, in which I weave other information. I try, for instance, to use direct cut and paste of bits of an abstract, etc. to make sure that the paper’s author’s voice is heard, but I am not pretending to be a journalist.

    I’ll continue to assume that the word “blogging” in the phrase “Blogging on Peer Reviewed Research” is not really linked to any particular set of writing guidelines. I am a scientist with reactions to, opinions of, ideas supplementary to, and valid critiques of peer reviewed papers. I put these reactions and responses and stuff on my blog with a reference to the paper and some kind of description of what the paper is about.

    In some cases I go through great pains just to explain a paper. Other times I don’t explain much but pick up on one or two key tropes and give my response. Etc.

    Is that not blogging on peer reviewed research?

    On a different guideline: To be honest, I was originally uncomfortable with the idea that we had to “understand” what we were writing about. Not because I don’t think we should understand it, but because I don’t want you to judge me in that way. Go look at my paper on junk DNA. Send it to Larry Moran as an expert and ask him if he thinks I understand the paper I wrote about. Then decide on that basis if I understand it or not, and if the answer is no, then unlink my post and fire me.

    If you do that, The Answer will be no (for reasons that have more to do with Larry than me or my post, IMHO), you will be forced to fire me and I will be forced to kick your ass.

    Now, see, the DI’s got us fighting among ourselves! This is not the way it should be! Scientists, unite!

    Oh, by the way, here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/02/luskin_and_the_discovery_insti.php

    is my more considered opinion of the matter.

    I love BPR3. I think you are being too nice to DI. You don’t need to squeeze them out because of any criteria other than that they are who they are. Really, that’s all you need, and I’m sure you will have the support of the community.

  10. DrugMonkey Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    Dave, yes. I think that in “discussing” a paper it will be very difficult and rhetorically ponderous to clearly identify the degree to which each and every comment you make is supported by the data at hand, some nebulous number of prior directly-related papers you’ve read, biases and mindsets created by your experiences in the field or by your experiences as a person, etc. To “go there” as your criterion is IME a mistake because it opens up the opportunity for nasty drawn out parsing of each sentence you write in review of a given paper.

  11. Ian Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    I’m pretty confident that requiring thoughtful posts about peer-reviewed research will squeeze out the pseudoscience and antiscience. I guess you’re not.

    Let me expand a bit.

    We don’t disagree that “require thoughtful posts … ” is the way to go. Where we apparently differ is what “require” means.

    As this incident should make obvious, anti-scientists by their nature will try to weasel the rules. They will game the system, they will try to take advantage of any weakness, and to them honesty and common sense are weaknesses. If you make a definition they will try to subvert it. They will complain and make noise and try to be persecuted, because that’s how anti-scientists work.

    The best way to play into their hands is to make a rigid, legalistic, definition-based, list of strict requirements, that they can take away and pore over. That lets them play off the community, and take advantage of well-meaning people who believe (unlike the anti-scientists) in “fairness” and “cooperation” and “community”.

    If you are depending solely on good will, honesty, and fair play, then you are dead in the water. If you expect a “community” to reach a concensus, especially in a timely manner — then you’re dead in the water. Because it won’t happen. It only takes a tiny minority lacking in good will and honesty to screw up a community.

  12. Andrea Bottaro Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 4:24 pm

    I can’t say I agree with the final decision, but I have not followed the discussion closely enough. Although Luskin’s particular case is rather clear-cut, I think in general there is just too much of a gray area between acceptable but extreme disagreement with respect to the interpretation of the evidence in a science paper, and unacceptable misinterpretation.

    That said, I have a counter-proposal (assuming no one has made it yet): let Luskin use the bpr3 logo, but add the general requirement that anyone using it should allow open comments/trackbacks on their site, and/or specifically allow a trackback to their post from a discussion/critique thread on this site. Then let actual peer-review run its course.

    My bet is that Luskin will just reject the offer, and take the logo off. EN&V is scared stiff of open discussion.

  13. John Lynch Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 4:33 pm

    Andrea makes an excellent point. Make a requirement to allow open exchange of views. Serious science bloggers wont have a problem with that.

    Then the community will take care of this themselves.

  14. Ian Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    add the general requirement that anyone using it should allow open comments/trackbacks on their site

    All this will do is add a “discussion” of what “open comments” means on top of all the other discussions. Is he allowed to get rid of spam? How many posts is “spam”? Is he allowed to eliminate profanity-laced invective? Exactly how many swear-words would be allowed? Which are swear-words? Can you prove your comment was deleted? What if your blog software makes a mistake and deletes a genuine comment — are you no longer allowing open comments? What if the ID brigade floods your blog — can’t you delete it?

    You’re proving my point: We all know that this crap needs to be banned, you’re just groping around for an “acceptable” reason to do it.

    Just do it, and stop trying to come up with a rationalization for what you know is right. Naive proposals like this are just going to make things worse.

  15. Cody Cobb Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 4:48 pm

    Andrea’s point needs another echo. While comments are not always good for some blogs, trackbacks should be a requirement for any one that uses the bpr3 logo. A move like that would almost single-handedly keep dishonest players out of the picture.

  16. Miles Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 5:45 pm

    Intelligent design is not science. Nothing coming from the Discovery Institute or Casey Luskin is science. Quite the opposite. The only reason they want this BPR3 icon is to add legitimacy to their anti-science agenda. You guys aleady know this, why am I saying it? Look how he treated (distorted) the article he wrote about.

    And I am not saying he is a bad person, but his behaviour is awful in this respect. And Casey Luskin’s antics are well known, Pandas Thumb has pretty much documented every distortion and lie Casey has published.

    Why are you bending over backwards to accomodate an organization who’s guiding goals include:

    “1) To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural, and political legacies

    2) To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God”

    Now ask yourself, why in the world do they want to use your BPR3 icon? You tell me.

    And if you allow the Discovery Institute to pimp your icon, what;s next? The Flat Earthers? HIV Deniers (keep in mind several prominant Discovery Institute Fellows are HIV deniers), Raelians? Seriously.

  17. Andrea Bottaro Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

    With all due respect, it’s not that the bpr3 logo is, or aspires to be, science’s Good Housekeeping Seal. If pseudoscience supporters think that putting the logo on their sites make them look “sciencey”, let them.

    However, the thing they hate the most, and avoid as much as they can, is open scrutiny from knowledgeable critics. Make the logo contingent on exposing their readers to critiques, and you are in a win-win situation.

    As for the possibility of ID advocates spamming science sites, they already could, and by and large it doesn’t happen.

  18. Joseph O'Donnell Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    Firstly, I’ll repeat my view that if you criticise someones research, even if this is on the internet, they should be allowed an open discussion point to refute or discuss what you’ve said. Even though, it’s probably very unlikely most authors will even notice their work has been blogged about, I still view this as mandatory for simple fairness reasons and that means comments should be allowed.

    But as to rejection of the post and site, based on the above alone, should be sufficient reason. But the post itself still doesn’t get any better.

    In terms of rule #5:

    1) Casey does not distinguish the opinion he has, with what the actual opinion of the author is. “IC” as a term is meaningless in the actual scientific community and was never used in the original article. Nor is the original author supporting such a concept as Casey claims.

    2) The paper itself is not really summarised anywhere (content wise), there is no discussion on what is actually proposed in the paper and the actual point of the paper (which is rather different from Luskins interpretation) is never actually stated in the original post.

    This alone disqualifies it.

  19. Ian Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    Make the logo contingent on exposing their readers to critiques, and you are in a win-win situation.

    Again: How do you propose to enforce this? How will you determine exactly which comments the ID proponents are deleting? How will you determine whether they’re legitimately deleted (spam, abuse) or not?

    And how will you tell what my comment policy is? How do you know which comments I’ve deleted in the past week? How are you going to determine whether they were legimate or not?

    Be specific in your explanation. Give precise criteria that will never fail. Because if you can’t offer specific, precise criteria, then every claim that such-and-such a blog is failing to meet this “requirement” will merely turn into another comment wankfest like this one.

    This is a sweet idea, but it’s not remotely workable.

  20. Jack Krebs Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 7:02 pm

    Someone has probably mentioned this (I haven’t read all the comments), but the DI’s EN&V is not a blog in the sense that they don’t allow comments. If they’re not willing to get feedback on their posts, I don’t think they should get to join – seems to be against both the idea of peer review and the “teach the controversy” approach they claim to have.

  21. waldteufel Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 10:47 pm

    I’m a scientist; probably very typical of the breed.
    Speaking only for myself, if I start seeing your logo on DI posts, I will immediately see trash.
    When scientists and interested, informed laymen abandon the idea that your logo has meaning, what do you have left?
    It’s your logo, and it’s your reputation. I guess it comes down in large measure as to how you value them.

  22. sparc Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    I am not sure if I always met the criteria for using the BPR3 icon.
    Still, I would feel uncomfortable if the BPR3 icon could be used by antisciences blogs because I don’t want my writings to be affiliated with their crap in any way even if only indirectly via the icon.
    Thus, rather than putting the burden of deciding this issue on Dave’s shoulders I would suggest to invite all registered BPR3 users to make a vote.
    I guess this would be a fair approach because Luskin had the chance to discuss the issue in the previous thread.

  23. David Smith Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 4:48 am

    Hi there,

    A suggestion as a publisher… And I’m going beyond the specific issue of the Luskin Blog post – but I hope what I write is of use.

    Why not mandate that Bloggers declare (competing) interests? Whether you do it at sign-up or at the level of each blog entry that uses the icon is a matter that could be debated, but this could be a very useful technique for allowing even handed resolution of such issues. You are going to have more things like this crop up, I’m pretty certain of it.

    My assessment of this situation is that in a noble attempt to focus on the specifics of the blog post (and its suitability to wear the icon) the wider context of the post is not being addressed. I think that by requesting a declaration of interests – in this case a clear statement that sets out the context of the blog and the mission statement of the organisation that supports it (in this case) would allow a value assessment of the blog entries to be made.

    Further, guideline No 5 can come to your aid. If the community starts to remark that the post violates the spirit of guideline 5, either on the blog entry – (which is the best place) or to you as “Editor” of BPR3 then you can keep tabs on the frequency with which such comments come up. I chose the word ‘violate’ carefully – in a case like this, one is looking at whether the balance of opinion is that there is an a ttempt

    You can also put an “official BPR3 comment” on the entry stating the perceived guideline violations as reported by the community. And why not make it a rule that deletion of such a comment would result in immediate removal from BPR3.

    Then everything is open and transparent. Those who wish to use the icon must abide by the rules and guidelines and agree to take responsibility for any breaches.

    Hope this is of use.

  24. Larry Fafarman Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 6:53 am

    This whole “blogging on peer-reviewed research” logo project seems pointless to me.

    (1) The logo says that just the research — not the blog article, and certainly not the blog visitors’ comments — is “peer-reviewed.” So what is the big deal? Lots of blogs have articles about peer-reviewed research and there is no way to assure the quality of those articles or their comment threads, and any assessment of that quality is likely to be arbitrary.

    (2) There seems to be an assumption here that “research” means scientific research, but there are many other kinds of research — there is research about law, history, etc..

    (3) Your policy on free, open commenting on blogs is hypocritical. Many of the registered blog articles here are on PZ Myers’ Pharyngula blog, and PZ’s arbitrary censorship of comments is flagrant — he maintains a whole big list of permanently banned commenters. He calls this list the “killfile dungeon” — http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/plonk.php BPR3 team member Mike Dunford also practices arbitrary censorship of comments and commenters.

    (4) I doubt that you can obtain and enforce a trademark of your logo.

  25. Nathan Munson Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 8:44 am

    Some have raised the objection that a blog is not a blog unless it allows comments. What is your definition of a blog? This particular sub-issue seems clear cut with respect to BPR3’s concept of blogging.

  26. barn owl Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 9:50 am

    I’m afraid I share Ian’s cynicism about enforcement of and compliance with clearly-stated rules, in the context of internet communities, whether messageboards, blog comments, or blog “collectives”. Dave, for all your admirable intentions and brilliant organizational skills, you can’t change the behavior of narcissists who view “teh interwebz” as an ideal venue for expansion of their personality disorder(s). Although in many respects it’s ridiculous to “diagnose” psychological disorders in cyberspace, I think that repeated attempts to twist or evade rules, which most other participants find quite reasonable, represent characteristic narcissistic behavior.

    In short, I think that the “benevolent dictatorship” option offers the best solution in this case; most other actions will only feed the narcissistic supply and victimization dynamic.

  27. MachiavelliDiscourse Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    The process appears to be working rather well. Rule number 5 requires that the blogger reports accurately on the paper in question. Luskin has quite clearly misrepresented Orgel’s opinions, put words in his mouth, and failed to report accurately on any of the pertinent points Orgel makes.

    Orgel states:

    “It must be recognized that assessment of the feasibility of any particular proposed prebiotic cycle must depend on arguments about chemical plausibility, rather than on a decision about logical possibility.”

    By attempting to invoke irreducible complexity, which in this context is simply pointing to the complexity of the metabolic cycle, Luskin is making the very mistake that Orgel warns against – he is not addressing the chemistry of the system, but simply suggesting that a cursory glance at the complexity should be enough to decide whether it is plausible or not. Of course, this is a common creationist tactic – to avoid discussion of the science and try to make simple mathematical or logical arguments to trip evolution up.

    I personally think that requiring a blogger to have open comments would be the right direction to move in, but there is certainly room for debate on this issue. What is clear, however, is that the community is capable of making case-by-case decisions based on rule number 5. Luskin has certainly not built a case for being included in the aggregation system.

    At present, you don’t need to create any new rules to legitimately refuse Luskin’s request. His post is in clear violation of rule number 5 and the community has realised this.

  28. Larry Fafarman Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    No one has yet explained the purpose of this whole project. Anyone can blog about peer-reviewed research — I have done so myself.

    As for your policy on free, open commenting, which you don’t enforce anyway, I have already beaten you out on that by forming my own organization, the Association of Non-Censoring Bloggers.

  29. Miles Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    Here is a good example of Casey Luskin distorting reality (aka lying) to advance his cause.

    Guillermo Gonzalez appeal failed today by a vote of 7-1. From the Evolution “blog” Casey had this to say:

    “They’ve denied his due process rights throughout this entire appeal”

    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/02/stellar_astronomer_guillermo_g.html

    “Due process” is a legal term for which most everyone is familiar with. Denying someone’s due process is a very bad thing.

    I’ve checked the United States Constitution and there are no provisions for a university to grant special “due process rights” in a tenure dispute. But Casey, the lawyer, would have the reader believe quite the opposite.

    Luskin does not understand law any more than he understands science.

  30. Trey Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

    DI does not discuss science, they discuss pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo :).

    That said, I like Andrea’s idea. Require sites to at minimum allow trackbacks and show from other sites. Perhaps even comments.

    Agreed that this could open another entire discussion.. we all have to delete comments that are spam or attacks, etc. But a minimum of trackbacks wouldn’t be a problem I think.

    Or you could say at least trackbacks from other ResearchBlogging registered sites.

    That would weed out those in general don’t like the light of day.

  31. terryf Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    Just an FYI. Luskin’s explanation of this situation found here has allowed two trackbacks to Scienceblog entrees on the situation.

  32. mr. gunn Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    You’ll never be able to define exactly what is “appropriate” and what isn’t.

    I’d allow any post actively discussing a research paper that the poster has read and seems to understand, with the proviso that the blog must allow comments.

    We’re talking about blogs, here. They’re full of opinion and emotion. No vetting process can give a blog authority, rather its authority comes from its popularity. People who abuse the spirit of BPR3 can be treated just like trolls. Make an example of them, then ban them(like PZ banned the above commenter Larry Fafarman).

  33. Miles Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    Larry Fafarman has been banned from just about every civilized blog in north america. I can assure you that if he hangs around here very long he’ll meet the same fate, or you’ll shut down the site. You won’t have much choice.

    All it takes is someone naive enough to feed him…

    And whatever you do, don’t mention Judge Jones, Kitzmiller vs Dover, equate ID with religion around Larry.

  34. Nathan Munson Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

    MachiavelliDiscourse said:

    Orgel states:
    “It must be recognized that assessment of the feasibility of any particular proposed prebiotic cycle must depend on arguments about chemical plausibility, rather than on a decision about logical possibility.”

    By attempting to invoke irreducible complexity, which in this context is simply pointing to the complexity of the metabolic cycle, Luskin is making the very mistake that Orgel warns against – he is not addressing the chemistry of the system, but simply suggesting that a cursory glance at the complexity should be enough to decide whether it is plausible or not.

    Nathan: But is that a fair assessment? Here is what Luskin actually wrote:

    “Orgel recounts many obstacles to the spontaneous formation of metabolic pathways (also called “cycles”) on the early earth. He observes that such cycles “must be evaluated in terms of the efficiencies and specificities that would be required of its hypothetical catalysts in order for the cycle to persist.” In other words, Orgel inherently assumes there are irreducible thresholds of reactivity and numbers of catalysts that must be crossed in order for these metabolic pathways to exist.”

    Nathan: Citing catalysts and how many would be needed for a plausible chemical pathway is addressing “the chemistry of the system.”

    Luskin: “But even according to Orgel, simply having such metabolic pathways is not enough, for “the identification of a cycle of plausible prebiotic reactions is a necessary but not a sufficient step toward the formulation of a plausible self-organizing prebiotic cycle. The next, and more difficult step, is justifying the exclusion of side reactions that would disrupt the cycle.” Again, Orgel essentially assumes that cyclic metabolic pathways are irreducibly complex systems that require a large number of parts in order to function—including parts that allow them to avoid many side pathways that will disrupt the cycle. In Orgel’s view, it is not plausible to contend that such complex systems, with all of their numerous required components, would simultaneously come into existence:”

    Nathan: Contrary to claims, analyzing the “exclusion of side reactions that would disrupt the cycle” is a valid approach to assessing a proposed chemical pathway. It’s pertinent to the evaluation of chemical reactions. So too is consideration of whether or not a system of components is needed.

  35. Nathan Munson Says:
    February 7th, 2008 at 10:43 pm

    Mr. Gunn, you insist that a blog allow comments but allow for the exclusion of commenters and their comments at the pleasure of the blogger. Not a formula for free expression.

    The issue is what is blogging and what justifies your personal view of how it should be defined.

  36. MachiavelliDiscourse Says:
    February 8th, 2008 at 9:18 am

    The passages that Nathan quotes counter the very point he is trying to make. Luskin says:

    “In other words, Orgel inherently assumes there are irreducible thresholds of reactivity and numbers of catalysts that must be crossed in order for these metabolic pathways to exist.”

    Orgel assumes no such thing, rather he makes the point that we must evaluate the specific chemistry of each hypothetical cycle. Luskin, on the other hand, suggests that Orgel is proposing a complexity threshold beyond which cycles are unlikely to form – this is a general, logical argument against complex cycles, rather than a specific argument tailored to the chemistry of a particular cycle. Hence, he is making the mistake that Orgel warns against.

    Luskin says:

    “Again, Orgel essentially assumes that cyclic metabolic pathways are irreducibly complex systems that require a large number of parts in order to function—including parts that allow them to avoid many side pathways that will disrupt the cycle. In Orgel’s view, it is not plausible to contend that such complex systems, with all of their numerous required components, would simultaneously come into existence.”

    Luskin is misrepresenting Orgel’s argument once again. While Orgel argues that metabolic cycles need to be stable, efficient, and likely to form based on their individual chemistry, Luskin attempts to condense this (couched in Orgel’s terms to maximise confusion) into a prohibitive, general argument against all such cycles. This is precisely the type of argument that Orgel takes issue with.

    The pattern is clear. Orgel proposes criteria upon which we can judge the plausibility of nonenzymatic metabolic cycles and he uses said criteria to evaluate specific cases. Orgel concludes that in the absence of experimental data we must evaluate the chemical plausibility of hypothetical cycles. Luskin takes Orgel’s criteria and nests them under the umbrella of irreducible complexity to create a genereal, prohibitive argument against all such cycles based on the improbability of their formation.

    Thus, Luskin is inviting us to disregard all metabolist theories for the origin of life by erecting a complexity threshold that is far too improbable to be crossed. Orgel, on the other hand, is inviting us, in the absence of experimental data, to examine the chemical plausibility of each hypothethical cycle on its own merits.

    Luskin, following in the creationist tradition, is proposing a single, neat, and logical argument against metabolist theories, namely irreducible complexity. This is why he concludes that the evidence must point to an intelligent designer – he doesn’t wish to wait for the experimental evidence to come in, or to have to evaluate hypothetical cycles on a case-by-case basis. Luskin would prefer to blow all such cases out of the water with a single argument. And this approach is in stark contrast to what Orgel proposes.

  37. Matt Dimmic Says:
    February 8th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    This question depends on the central purpose of BPR3. Is it a tool or an endorsement?

    Personally, I see it as a tool. Most scientists recognize that peer-reviewed papers often have plenty of flaws; publication is a beginning and not an end. Yet it’s rare to find explicit repudiation of an article in the literature, and even when such repudiation occurs, it can happen months or years later. More often, such flaws are exposed in journal clubs or in conversations with people who are knowledgeable in the article’s field of study.

    BPR3 offers an opportunity to fill this gap, by both aggregating and indexing those types of conversations. It is the indexing that’s important to me: I want the ability to click on an article citation and read the collected body of commentary and opinions on that article. As long as some of those opinions are expert opinions, it’s easy enough to wade through the chaff.

    In fact that chaff can have interest as well. I’ve written several articles on evolution, and in at least one case I came across a mention of the article on a creationist message board. I’m happy to have a tool that makes it easier for me to track (and refute) commentary on my articles, especially if it’s ill-informed or illogical.

    Based on that reasoning, I’m fine with the inclusion of Luskin’s blog post. I do think it would be helpful to add some guideline that the blog allow for reasonable commentary and criticism, either through comments or trackbacks. You should be the ultimate arbiter of “reasonable”. On the main BPR3, I would also make clear that use of the BPR3 logo is not considered an endorsement of the validity of the blog, only that it meets the minimum guidelines.

    Even though I prefer BPR3 as a tool for (eventual) indexing, I can see why those who use it for aggregation do not want their feed reader clogged with creationist screeds and uninformed rants. One solution is to set up tagging, and have per-tag feeds. Lifehacker is an example of a site that allows some pretty advanced customization based on tags:

    http://lifehacker.com/344188/get-only-the-posts-you-want-from-lifehackers-site-feeds

    For example, one could exclude such posts using the following URL:

    http://researchblogging.org/tag/evolution/not:creationism-blog/

    For convenience, I think it would be OK to allow the author to submit their own tags, and you could reject their suggestions or add to them if they start to abuse the system.

  38. Nathan Munson Says:
    February 8th, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    MachiavelliDiscourse said:
    The pattern is clear. Orgel proposes criteria upon which we can judge the plausibility of nonenzymatic metabolic cycles and he uses said criteria to evaluate specific cases. Orgel concludes that in the absence of experimental data we must evaluate the chemical plausibility of hypothetical cycles.

    Nathan: Evaluating chemical plausibility in the absence of experimental data allows for a lot of leeway. What set of presumptions are chosen and based on what criteria of plausibility? This invites claims of subjectivity.

    Luskin takes Orgel’s criteria and nests them under the umbrella of irreducible complexity to create a genereal, prohibitive argument against all such cycles based on the improbability of their formation.

    Nathan: IC is nothing more than identifying system x as multi-component and linking its function to the presence of multiple components. We see such biochemical pathways in cells. A multi-component system does not necessarily preclude precursor pathways but we have no reason to presume pathways must exist particularly in a precellular environment devoid of homeostasis mechanisms. Of course the means of demonstration should be experimental but it is precisely the experimental history of origin of life research that offers little encouragement to those looking for data to support a belief that prebiotic chemical pathways lead to the formation of cellular systems.

    Thus, Luskin is inviting us to disregard all metabolist theories for the origin of life by erecting a complexity threshold that is far too improbable to be crossed. Orgel, on the other hand, is inviting us, in the absence of experimental data, to examine the chemical plausibility of each hypothethical cycle on its own merits.

    Nathan: The two camps can argue about such things forever. The arguments await conclusive empirical data.

  39. Reed Says:
    February 8th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    The description of BPR3 says the purpose is to “identify serious academic blog posts about peer-reviewed research”. This might be a tool, but not quite the tool Matt Dimmic describes.

    Assuming the stated purpose, I don’t see any reason BPR3 should include bloggers who intentionally, dishonestly misrepresent science. Luskin (like much of the ID/creationist movement) has a long history of doing this, even if the post in question isn’t a particularly glaring example (I’m not qualified to judge this case, but it certainly looks like he’s trying to spin it.)

    Whether Luskin is in fact dishonest is ultimately a judgment call, but such judgment is required to meet the stated goal. Someone, somewhere along the line is going to have to decide which blogs are honest, informed academic commentary, and which are the work of kooks and liars. Simply accepting the kooks and liars with a disclaimer strikes me as contrary to the stated purpose.

    One might argue that only accuracy of the particular post should be a factor, but I disagree. If Luskin merely misinterpreted one article, and his other commentary was generally insightful, it would be no big deal. OTOH, if the entire purpose of his blog is to promote pseudoscience without any regard for truth, the fact that one particular article required only moderate distortion to promote his view is irrelevant.

  40. MachiavelliDiscourse Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 9:19 am

    Nathan says:

    “Evaluating chemical plausibility in the absence of experimental data allows for a lot of leeway. What set of presumptions are chosen and based on what criteria of plausibility? This invites claims of subjectivity.”

    Reasoned arguments can be made based on what we currently know about chemistry, and this is precisely what Orgel does. There is certainly room for debate, but the arguments that might be raised would be based on objective science. Luskin would prefer to rule out all metabolist theories by appealing to the complexity of the cycles.

    Nathan says:

    “IC is nothing more than identifying system x as multi-component and linking its function to the presence of multiple components. We see such biochemical pathways in cells.”

    This is a very loose and, in the context of metabolic cycles, redundant definition of IC. If you wish to swap terms about between very different settings then you run the risk of destroying any meaning that they might have had. IC, as defined by Behe, argues against the adaptive evolution of a multi-component structure by suggesting that the structure is too integrated to have evolved via a series of beneficial intermediates. IC assumes that the current function of the structure was always the object of selection in the past and that co-evolution between component parts would not convert a once superfluous (but beneficial) component into an essential one.

    This definition of IC has no relevance to metabolist theories for the origin of life since they do not involve adaptive evolution but instead require processes like self-organisation. In the context of metabolic cycles IC means nothing more than “these cycles are too complex to have formed.” Such a blanket statement is entirely redundant since Orgel demonstrates that we can analyse individual cycles based on their individual chemistry.

    Nathan says:

    “…but it is precisely the experimental history of origin of life research that offers little encouragement to those looking for data to support a belief that prebiotic chemical pathways lead to the formation of cellular systems.”

    That does not mean that we should throw our hands up and declare that an unspecified designer did something, somewhere, using unknown and unknowable methods, which left behind zero empirical evidence that they were ever used. Orgel makes a very careful and informed analysis of metabolic cycles. Luskin uses his analysis and declares that it is evidence for intelligent design. This is patently false; Orgel’s analysis supports the notion that current metabolist theories are falling short of chemical plausibility. Luskin would have us believe that an absence of evidence for metabolist theories for the origin of life is positive evidence for an unrelated hypothesis that posits the existence of an intelligent designer. This is a classic false dichotomy.

    Nathan says:

    “The two camps can argue about such things forever. The arguments await conclusive empirical data.”

    Orgel’s paper is quite simply a criticism of metabolist theories for the origin of life. It does not support in any way the notion of an intelligent designer and to suggest that it does is to appeal to a false dichotomy. ID proponents need to seek a hypothesis that makes clear predictions so that they too can gather empirical data. Sitting around and pontificating about the lack of evidence for someone else’s theory gets you nowhere.

  41. Larry Fafarman Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    The “About” webpage of BPR3 says,

    –”Do you like to read about new developments in science and other fields? Are you tired of “science by press release”? BPR3 is your place. BPR3 allows readers to easily find blog posts about serious peer-reviewed research, instead of just news reports and press releases. “–

    What is wrong with “news reports” and “press releases”? They are less likely to be biased than personal blogs.

    How is BPR3 superior to, say, Google? In Google, you just enter the topic you are interested in and then you get a list of websites that address that topic. If you are not interested in “news reports” and “press releases,” then you can just ignore the listed sites that contain them.

    Inevitably, many blogs, blog articles, and other websites that satisfy your criteria are going to be missing from your lists, so to do a comprehensive search, one would have to use Google and/or other search engines anyway.

    Your “Guidelines for using the Research Blogging icon” say,

    –”The post author should have read and understood the entire work cited.”–

    How can this requirement be enforced? And why is this requirement needed? A reviewer might be interested in just one small section of a peer-reviewed research report, so why is it necessary to read and understand parts of the report that have no bearing on that section?

    –”The blog post should report accurately and thoughtfully on the research it presents.”–

    Who is to decide what is accurate and thoughtful?

    –”The post should contain original work by the post author”–

    Sounds OK to me.

    — while some quoting of others is acceptable, the majority of the post should be the author’s own work.”–

    Who is to decide what the “majority of the post”" is?

    Also, I found some important topics missing in your list of topics on http://researchblogging.org/, e.g., law, medicine, history, meteorology, and English literature. IMO “clinical research” should be dropped — it is too vague. Also, IMO earth/environmental should be split into geology and environmental.

    IMO the biggest problem with blogs is arbitrary censorship of visitors’ comments, and you are not going to do anything about that. Potentially, visitors’ comments can present a variety of views and help to make blogs self-correcting on the facts. Arbitrarily censoring visitors’ comments shows a desire to present just one side of controversial issues. Ironically, it is the highly persuasive dissenting comments that are most likely to be censored — the really bad dissenting comments are often left up as supposed examples of the weakness of the opposition. People who are opposed to arbitrary censorship of blog visitors’ comments are welcome to join my Association of Non-Censoring Bloggers.

  42. Nathan Munson Says:
    February 20th, 2008 at 6:08 pm

    …it is precisely the experimental history of origin of life research that offers little encouragement to those looking for data to support a belief that prebiotic chemical pathways lead to the formation of cellular systems.”

    MachiavelliDiscourse: “That does not mean that we should throw our hands up and declare that an unspecified designer did something, somewhere, using unknown and unknowable methods, which left behind zero empirical evidence that they were ever used.”

    Nathan: It is a good starting point on which to reflect on alternative possibilities to mainstream theories. Lack of supporting data for chemical pathways to cells is consistent with what one would expect from a design alternative.

  43. MachiavelliDiscourse Says:
    February 24th, 2008 at 7:24 pm

    Nathan says:

    “Lack of supporting data for chemical pathways to cells is consistent with what one would expect from a design alternative.”

    The absence of evidence for metabolist theories is consistent with geneticist theories for the origin of life. The absence of evidence for metabolist theories is consistent with the hypothesis that Arnold Schwarzenegger’s left biceps travelled back in time in 1984 (shortly after the release of The Terminator) and initiated the origin of life by dissolving itself in a hot spring thereby releasing a slew of complex polymers that eventually formed the first self-replicating molecules. Indeed, the absence of evidence for metabolist theories is consistent with every conceivable hypothesis except for metabolist ones.

    This absence, however, does not constitute positive evidence in favour of any of these alternative hypotheses, nor should it be construed as such. Individual hypotheses need to be evaluated on the evidence in their favour and not on the absence of evidence for competing hypotheses.

  44. Martin Robbins Says:
    March 5th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    I can’t help but feel that this site needs an actual members only forum on which we can discuss this.

    I also think that members should be able to positively or negatively mark posts so that they can be sorted by score. I can’t help but feel that my posts on here so far have received basically zero feedback on how good people think they are, or how I can improve them…

  45. Bill C Says:
    March 17th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    Larry Fafarman Says:

    “As for your policy on free, open commenting, which you don’t enforce anyway, I have already beaten you out on that by forming my own organization, the Association of Non-Censoring Bloggers.”

    This “association” has only one member and he does not practice non-censorship. At one time he had a single other member who joined at Larry’s pleading but dropped out in protest of Larry’s hypocrisy.

  46. penguindreams Says:
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    I’ve only now encountered this thread, and site, and the idea. Part of that is that I’ve only recently started thinking about blogging.

    For the decision about Luskin, I think the right conclusion was reached. But my thoughts in getting there are enough different (though entirely consistent with what Dave posted) that maybe they’ll add either a point to the ‘rules’ or a point of reference for later situations.

    In reading about the bpr3 effort, I was quite happy about it (and will, in a bit, be applying). Press releases etc. don’t go far in explaining the science. The original article, on the other hand, can be imposing to a nonprofessional. Something in between, such as a science-oriented blog post, can fill an excellent role. A means of helping people find such blog posts is a great idea.

    Now I’m back to why I (where I’m a nonprofessional) care about peer-reviewed work in the first place. Not because it is infallible; peer-reviewed papers are imperfect. But they are honest attempts to understand some part of the universe and to communicate honestly that new understanding. The original author(s) may be wrong, but they should be (per Feynman’s description) be making effort to be complete and unbiased.

    That value is entirely lost with a Luskin, who is writing for/from an institution whose purpose is to _not_ be unbiased, and which has frequently demonstrated dishonesty in their reporting and actions. The DI and its staff have particular conclusions about science which they are promoting, and which will not change regardless of evidence in the peer reviewed literature.

    They’re welcome to their conclusions, but it does point that they’re not trying to do the sort of science communication that I see bpr3 trying to support.

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